With the Canucks visiting Long Island tonight, a number of New York media members tried to get John Tortorella to discuss his former team's struggles to start the season, but the ex-Rangers coach wouldn't take the bait.
However, Vancouver captain Henrik Sedin had no problems comparing his former Canucks coach to the current one (via New York Post)...
“(Tortorella) is more involved during games, the way you play. (Vigneault) left the room to us a little more and let us run with it, but Torts is more in there after every period, giving you how you played and what you need to do better. I think that’s been very good so far. That’s how you want it to be.”
...talk about adding some insight into what might be wrong with this Rangers team. That last line from Sedin should scare the crap out of every Rangers fan.
...i've been critical of Vigneault's hands-off approach when it comes to the locker room, but I didn't realize it extended this far. How is a coach not analyzing the previous period during every intermission with his players? Is this now the job of Callahan, Richards and Staal? Can you imagine the Rangers players during the first intermission in Phoenix waiting for Vigneault to assess the period with them and he never enters the room? No wonder this team is so disorganized right now.
...if he hasn't already, my hope is that AV will recognize that this strategy isn't working and he takes more of an intimate interest in his players and how they're playing the games.
Ulf Samuelsson certainly was everything Torts was when he was the head coach in Modo, Sweden. In Sweden all teams has cameras in their dressing room and they show what is going on during intermission without sound.
I'll be more interested in what HSedin and the rest of the team is saying after 1 or 2 years rather than 7 games but yeah I'd prefer to have a coach that is involved with his team and runs things, you know, "coaches" rather than one who scratches his ass and expects his players to figure it out. I'd like to see AV a little more pissed off than he is right about now.
Ask him in 3 years and see what his response is. Rangers responded the same way when Torts was hired. Coaches like Torts, Keenan have a short shelf life since they get their teams to overachieve the first year or two, then they get shut out by their team.
I can hear McDonagh's acceptance speech to Hockey's Hall of Fame....."I want to thank AV for his hands off coaching style. It made me who I am today!"
Renney. Torts. AV. All different coaches, all different styles, all different demeanors. The one thing they have in common? Mediocre teams (and I would argue that the 2012 team was mediocre) This is not on the coaches. This is on players and the one who brings these mediocre teams together, Sather.
Don't know if this is the case here but if some players are just drifting along now because of lazy poor attitude, Vancouver played well under AV and most likely New York will too.If there are people who are negative on the team in a more free situation then they can be moved.
Cmon already. Torts lost this team with his antics and style of play. Now they have the complete opposite in av and still not good enough?
Just saying on NHL 14 today on Hard difficulty (for trades) in GM mode, I was able to trade DZ, Fast, Powe and a second rounder for Evander Kane... safe to say get it done!
we are gonna see who the real leaders are on this team. they got what they wanted, now they have to police themselves. it's over due.
I don't want to rant anymore, but we are taking on water. I think AV will be gone by Christmas and it will be an amazing Christmas gift!
Didn't the Ranger players want it this way? The players ran Torts out of town because he was a control freak and they wanted more freedom. Slats gave them what they wanted. Now the coach is the problem again? Come on. If the leaders on this team can't grow up and play hard ...trade them!!
It is obvious:
1. Torts was not the problem. He is what most "men" want, direct and tough. He got the most out of the talent around him.
2. AV will not change. It is rare that anyone does, so don't hope for it.
3. That the NYR players spoke behind Torts back, instead of confronting him directly a la Messier to Keenan shows the caliber of their character.
I love MY history with the NYR. I love them as MY team. However, I can't stand this team and this organization. They are soft from top to bottom. They are like a psycho girlfriend. Get the hell out and call me when you get your shit together.
Macro-Micro, Player's coach- Not a players coach. Whatever. Its the same story in every coaching change; you are going to get the exact opposite of what you are getting rid of.
With that said, I have thought and still do think that getting rid of Torts was a mistake and it set a dangerous precedent with the players in that they now feel empowered to ouster a coach if they feel so inclined.
What I would have like to have seen is something akin to the Coughlin situation with the Giants pre-Superbowl victories. I think that Coughlin and torts have a similar ornery, demanding disposition that can grate on players. The Giants' players at the time were unhappy. Did the powers that be knee-jerk fire Coughlin? No, they forced the two sides to discuss their issues and work it out.
Im late to the party here, but altho this may seem like insight, it wasn't long before players hated how Torts wouldn't leave them alone with his commentary about how they played!
Sedin is just giving lip service and saying the right thing for the media. What is he going to say, "torts is an annoying prick"?!??!
There are so many different ways to analyze Sedin's statements. One could go crazy trying to micro it. For example, the following is consistent with his description: Vigneault lets his leaders talk more between periods and share ideas of how to improve things. Tortorella spends the whole time talking.
Regardless, not being in the locker room himself, Sedin has NO idea how Vigneault is running the Rangers room, so his comments do not apply.
Kevin, you fan embers into infernos with extraordinary applomb. I applaud you, sir.
What Henrik Sedin said is exactly what the Rangers used to say about Tortorella. Duh. Torts is a good coach. Always was. Just real lousy at being nice to the media.
I went to an event last night where the Canucks GM Mike Gillis talked for two hours. He said that Rangers fans have no reason to worry - Vigneault is an awesome coach. However, he said Vigneault runs the team more like a CEO, as opposed to Torts who gets in on the action and is "always into it". Also said how Torts is the man basically and nothing like how the media portrays him. Said they fired Vigneault because they wanted a new voice. Obviously, AV knows what he is doing because he had some nice years in Vancouver. But, this wasn't exactly what I was hoping to hear about him.
Also mentioned that AV was a defensive coach when he arrived in Vancouver, but changed because of all the talent. I definitely don't think that the Rangers have as much talent as Vancouver, so maybe Vigneault needs to tweak what he's doing instead of moving to such a hands-off, free, offensive-minded system.
Wonder how poor little Henrik will feel when Torts says he or his brother suck on blocking shots or penalty killing, or something else. 2 words...Honeymoon period. The best thing Vancouver could do would be to lock up the Sedins now while they're still enamored with their new coach, because it will not last. As far as AV, sorry, but if players can't figure out what they're doing wrong or at least have the balls to say to the coach "hey, we're not getting this or that in your system" then they need to man the eff up real fast! It's not that difficult. And sorry, but that HAS to fall squarely on the shoulders of the player "leaders". If nobody is willing to step up to that, then strip the letters and bring in players that will. Do you really think guys like Dustin Brown, Jonathan Toews, Cindy, Tavares, or Chara are sitting there waiting to be told what's going wrong with their play. Come on! Step or or step out...I'm talking to you Callahan, Richards, and Staal!
This is one thing I've definitely noticed about AV that I'm not a fan of - very minimal player interaction during games. Torts was always talking with the players, giving feedback, whether criticism or encouragement, but AV just seems to stand back and lean on the wall and let things happen. Not everyone has the same management style, obviously, but I just don't feel like this hands-off approach he seems to be using is the right one for our team.
Keep in mind too, it's all about contrast to what you had prior. I bet the rangers players are saying the same thing about how this is how they want a coach to be. If this is true, than maybe we need to re evaluate how much "time" is needed for this team to get back on track especially with Cally out of the lineup.
Can you ever blame the players for their own failures? How many coaches does this team have to go through before you realize the players suck? Next you'll be posting articles like, "Torts uses Scott tissue instead of Charmin, like AV does...OMG THATS WHY THEYRE LOSING!!!!!111!!!!!"
i doubt its as bad as we think. i think every coach makes adjustments between periods but i think that torts was always more of a micromanager. i mean how many times did the rangers suck in one period and come out the next period and suck as bad if not worse than the previous period under torts!? its more about the players. i think we need a shake up of atleast 2 bottom six forwards.i hope the lines look like this soon.
kreider step nash
versteeg richards cally
hags brassard pouliot(zucc)
miller moore ott
As I told somebody else, this may explain the early struggles. It's like asking students to mark their own exams with an unclear marking scheme.
While Torts probably didn't hold the guys' hands, he probably "reminded" them very often of their mistakes - even if he expected them to see it. This was probably what got on the rooms' nerves after so many years.
In any case, it's still speculation for what's going on behind close doors, but I hope both sides fix whatever isn't working. Leadership group in room has to stand up to AV and say "we need a little more guidance" , and if that happens, AV has to accept that he needs to be more hands on than he likes even if temporarily.
Henrik Sedin doesn't say that Vigneault was never in the room, just that Torts is in there more. Could also be that after years of working with the same players, Vigneault didn't feel the need to be in the room as much. We don't know full story there so you're probably opening a Pandora's Box by speculating (which I know is exactly what you're trying to do lol).
As for Vigneault changing his ways - not going to happen. He's not all of a sudden going to become more hands on because this team needs it (even though they don't want it). The question becomes what happens next summer if everyone decides to walk cause they don't like him as a coach. Does Sather let them or does he get rid of Vigneault? Honestly not sure which would be the better option if it comes to that.
@Betweentheworlds I have had significant experience in a coaching/teacher/leader relationship with the teams I worked with (includes developing all-american athletes, developing CEOs and CFOs raising revenue to put Fox Primetime Network on the air for the first time etc) All and I mean All achievers in any walk of life CRAVE, DEMAND feedback. Achievers always....always want to know how they are doing and they want to know as quicky as possible after they "play". Where I come from If achievers have a coach/leader who gives them limited feedback they would get his butt fired. Where I come from AV would never have been hired in the first place. Why.....no fire....no enthusiasm....no drive....no passion. All the stuff you need to develop talent and win games.
Negative comments here re; Sather are on the money. Knowing Dolan, he too, has no fire, no drive, no enthusiasm, no passion.Nothing will change as long as Sather is in charge.
@AnnoyingJoe In fairness, I think Coughlin did a great job at adapting to pro NFLers. He loosened up the reins a bit, but still demanded accountability and they responded. Torts never really loosened up and it eventually wore the team down. AV may be too loose right now, but I think it's more that they are having a hard time adapting to his style rather than the players being lazy and taking advantage of AV's approach. Only time will tell.
@shishya100 They also have the best PK in the league and 2nd worst PP. They are definitely buying into Torts' system.
@Hotfreak I love the word "aplomb" so much fun to say.
@gravey94 BAM. truth bombs are dropping.
"The best thing Vancouver could do would be to lock up the Sedins now while they're still enamored with their new coach, because it will not last."
very true and very smart point.
@gravey94 I think they know what to do, but you need a coach there to reinforce or your game will ultimately slip.
And also I absolutely think we're beyond blaming the coach for everything - I want to see the players start taking some responsibility for things - but, that doesn't mean I have to like AV's approach.
@SA24 Exactly. The players are adjusting from a very "hands on" approach to a "hands off" approach. I'm not saying "Blame only AV, he's so cold and these lads aren't being taught". The leadership group in the room needs to step up if the general feel in the room is that they need more guidance in the transition period.
@GLENsatherVSglennDANZIG I don't think it was that often.
@cardboardcllctr Great analysis.
@Melissa (blknblueshirts) need to get rid of sather first, then evaluate everyone else!
@Melissa (blknblueshirts) I don't know. Sedin says that Torts is in there after every period, which obviously means that AV was not. How can a coach not be in the room between periods?
@EHBIGAPPLE @Betweentheworlds EH - agreed! That is a quite a list of accomplishments - nice! From experience I'd say you are correct - I'm always seeking feedback from my mentors. Sather is gone after this year - feeling his days are numbered unless things turn around in a big way. I didn't want AV either because I too sensed not enough fire and passion. So far he's done nothing to prove me wrong but I keep hearing he's a good coach and season's young. Hope he's listening.
@FREE MASHINTER @gravey94 I agree that the players know what to do, but the problem is that I don't think these players have the skill level to execute AVs system. I would guess, knowing AV's style, that he'll try his style out for a few more games, sensing if his personnel can pull it off, and then you'll see him change the style of play if he doesn't see any progress.
@FREE MASHINTER @GLENsatherVSglennDANZIG really? i remember thinking pretty often that the team didnt look like it made any adjustments. there is no doubt in my mind that torts was all over these guys. but av didnt have one of the best regular season teams year (and an ok playoff team) in and year out without any communication with his guys. its on the players. you see what theyre doing out there. theyre dogging it! the only guy that plays with heart is cally and unfortunatly hes made of glass! i need to see more from tehse guys or i want to see a trade. id love a fast player like versteeg and an averyesque player like ott. sign me up.
@FREE MASHINTER Agree. But was AV not in there from the start or did that change over the years as he learned the room? Maybe he thought they didn't need it. I don't know...I just find it weird that he would give them no guidance in the beginning. I've honestly not been impressed with him but I can't believe he would do that.