During last night's 3-2 loss to the Panthers, Chris Kreider was given just 3:43 of ice time, including a miniscule two shifts in the second period and ZERO in the third.
Kreider has not cracked ten minutes of ice time since his recall last week.
Good friend of the blog Scotty Hockey said it perfectly about Kreider in his game recap....
"If Torts doesn't trust Kreider to play more than four minutes against the worst team in the league, when is he ever going to trust him?"
...definitely not this season, because as soon as either Dorsett or Boyle are healthy, Kreider is headed to the Whale taxi squad.
...i think I've just given up on the idea that Torts will use Kreider this season, because I wasn't even upset about this after the game. Why would anyone think Torts would magically use Kreider after publicly stating he's worried about him in the big spot and that he didn't even want him recalled in the first place?
...unfortunately, Kreider has had a lost season. There was so much hype surrounding him after he exploded onto the scene in the playoffs last year, I guess it would have been hard for anyone to live up to those expectations. The best we can hope for is that he's learned from the adversity and he comes back a stronger player mentally for it.
Not saying I'm a gung-ho supporter of Kreider, but in my opinion, in the 4 mins of ice-time he's averaged on these random call-ups, I think he has played well. Played hard along the boards, skated harder than anyone on his shift (not difficult for a young kid when playing on the 4th, but my point stands), and I think given the situation we were in before Richie hitting his groove (hopefully it's actually back for good and not just a blip on the radar), Kreider should have had his playing time gradually scaled up by Torts (I like him, support everything he's done; sure I've had some angry screaming rants about him myself, but generally support/trust him/Sather). Given our current situation, you can't mess with the top 3 lines we have, which means Kreider is stuck with whatever limited time he can get, and I do agree, it's good for him to travel/practice with the team during the playoffs instead of playing with the Whale (Wolf Pack (thank god)).
But: just to make my point about why earlier in the season (when we were struggling) I would have liked to have seen Kreider getting more time, the following was cut from a post from NYdailynews that Kevin posted a link to, and I think it's perfectly applicable to Kreider.
RALEIGH, N.C. — Mats Zuccarello left the Rangers for Russia’s KHL last summer because he hadn’t received a fair shake, toiling in the minors for most of the 2011-12 season.
Now Zuccarello is playing as well as he ever has as a Ranger, and he says it’s because since re-signing on March 28, “I’ve felt like I’m a big part of the group.
“From Day One, I’ve played a lot,” Zuccarello said after Tuesday night’s 3-2 loss in Florida. “I’ve felt like I’m a big part of the group. And as soon as you do that, you get your confidence up and you kind of make plays that you probably wouldn’t do if you didn’t have your confidence up.”
For all you Torts fans. how do you justify the fact that this team may not make the playoffs? The team was unprepared to play this short schedule because Torts has no flexibility in his approach. The team added Nash to replace a bunch of guys who never produced and that didn't even help.
Another thing on Kreider/Torts...Go read this articles about Lecavlier & torts sounds alot like Kreider/Torts. The first one is how hard Torts is on Lecavlier the 2nd is a few yrs later & how appreciative Lecavlier is of Torts & his system. It also says that causeTorts made him play D he got more offensive chances.
Probably brought Kreid up to get more NHL experience even if he's not getting live game time. His game is not there yet, but love his speed and potential. I have issues with our coach but this isn't one of them.
This is for all the Torts haters who think Kreider was so great in the playoffs last year cause Torts just threw him out there & let him play. I went thru the boxscores. Now keep in mind I like Kreider and thought he was great last year a swell but we are only looking at the good from last years playoffs. here is the bad. He scored 5-goals had 2-ass. He was on ice for one other Ranger goal that he didn't factor into. So if he was "great" he would have been a plus-8or there abouts. Well he was a minus-4. Why? simple math...he was on ice for 12-goals!!!! Thats right 12-goals!!!! to put it into perspective we only gave up 41-gooals in the whole playoffs!!!! He was on ice for over 25% of the goals we gave up. Want more he missed the first 2-games of the Ottawa series in which we gave up 5-goals...so that means he was on ice for... ready for it....12 of the 36 goals in the games he played. thats 1/3rd!!!! Considering he was avging about 10-12 minutes a game thats pretty hard to do!!!! Want more.... he was a minus-4 in the Caps series. Including 1-game in which he got only 7:34 but still was on ice for 2-goals!!!!. Still Torts stayed w-him and in the Devil series he a minus-1. He was on ice for 5-goals in 6-games. The devs scored 15-goals in the series. he was on ice for 33% of the goals. Guys the numbers don't lie. I love Kreider his future is bright but Torts knows what he is doing. He is not ready yet. he is not a complete player. He needs to learn & torts his teaching him!!!!
Wow if Sean Avery got more ice time than Kreider does, and we all knew how Torts felt about Avery, imagine how he feels about Kreider??
I, like everyone got excited by Kreider and expected a big yr from. I though Torts was being foolish by not playing him more. However, I also trust Torts cause he has a history of success in developing young players. Lecavlier, St. louis, Richards Boyle in Tampa & Stepan, Mcdonough, Staal, Hagelin w-us. I have often been frustrated when we can't score goals that Kreider is not playing more. I have given Torts the benefit of the doubt that he saw something we didn't. That lead me to go look at Kreiders Playoff stats. Now there are those 5-goals which got us all excited, not to mention the 2-assist he had. Unfortunately he was also a -4 for the playoffs & though I didn't see a breakdown I would imagine that was largely against the Devils. A series we obviously lost. So maybe we need to re-think how great he was in last years playoffs. Yes he scored but he also was a liability on D. He was also a minus-1 w-us & a whopping minus-11 with Hartford. With every game this yr being a premium game due to the shortened season Torts is being extra careful w-him. So all the Torts haters out there, and their is a legion of them, my best friend who like me is a rabid ranger fan being the biggest one. Those who hate him and who thought they had a good point in their anti-Torts argument, think again. Once again the numbers support the fact that Torts knows what he is doing.
First off, put yourself in Kreider's shoes. Would you rather be practicing with a bunch of CT Whale guys and then watching the Rangers play on TV, or would you rather practice with the big club, be in all their meetings, gain all the insight from the locker room and play a few minutes in a playoff race? Not sure how being on the bench through a playoff race is hurting his development more than sitting in a hotel room watching said race unfold.
Second, I just love how the Rangers win 3 in a row and there's not a word about Torts, but they lose 1 game and suddenly he public enemy #1. Just classic!
All Torts talks about is playing the right way, being responsible defensively, being strong on the boards and hard on the forecheck, not taking stupid, lazy penalties. It's like a broken record. From my lips to Torts ears ---- You called up Kreider without a lick of your coaching last year in the playoffs and the kid saved us. You are the one messing with his head. Now that the Whale's season is over I can see him being with the Rangers but if you're only going to play the kid 4 mins especially with Powe and Asham then you're coaching acumen sucks! Total misuse of talent. You play Kreider b/c he's afraid of taking a penalty thus he won't and you don't play Haley or Newbury instead on the 4th line b/c you're afraid of them taking penalties. Here's the bottom line. Listen to the post game interview. PK has been as issue all year so every Ranger is afraid to take a penalty b/c of YOU! You're over-bearing, bullying coaching has them afraid to the very style you preach.Strong on the boards and hard on the forecheck. YOU stifle their aggressiveness with this mixed bag you call coaching. It's all about trust with YOU (Torts) and bottom line is you don't trust this team to execute your system the "right" way ---- as unimaginative and boring as it is.
I've said this before and I'll say it again...when new guys come to the Rangers or get called up and have a good couple of games and then they settle into Torts system, they become different players...when they're told to just go out and play they seem to do better...I'm not saying every player, but their seems to b quite a few
It is definitely concerning to see how the young players are being mishandled. What we saw last playoff with Kreider is pure talent, though raw.Torts is totally in this guys head now. You see Kreider playing tight, over thinking every decision he is making, afraid to make a mistake, not using his speed.
With such young talent getting close to move up, the organization's handeling should be a HUGE concern going forward. Is McIlrath going to clear the crease if he is afraid of being benched for taking a penalty?
We saw MDZ treated the same way a couple years back; how's that working out?
For once I am going to agree with the critics on this (that is to say I don't agree with people that suggest that Kreider has been handled badly and that it's somehow an example of how Torts doesn't know how to handle young talent). It made NO sense to call up Kreider if he wasn't going to slide into Boyle's spot on the third line. They should have called up Newbury and had him center the fourth line or Haley and had him play on the wing on the 4th line. Very perplexing.
Torts clearly has his favorites and although it was nice to see Zucc earn extra ice time, his handling of players like delzaster and Kreider is deplorable!! He's covered for Ritchie all season and now throws him under the bus?!?
This kid will leave as soon as he gets a chance if we don't trade him. It's terrible how he's been treated. I love Torts but the guys an ass.
wondering what the status of Dorsett is. I think Torts has made it clear that any of the rookies that have come up this year are going to get put on the backburner to protect their development.
If there was one thing Scotty has ever said that couldn't be more accurate, it's that quote above. Extremely disappointed in Torts handling of Kreider this season.
I blame the coaching for this one. Kreider was not put in a position to a succeed. It seems like torts is a guy that takes favorites because DZ has been awful but I don't think he has said one bad thing about him this year, and continuously plays him 20 minutes a night.
Why should we worry about Kreider living up to expectations when we have a whole team that didn't???
sad thing is that Kreider made use of his ice time. I remember his serious hustle to break up that icing and he almost got it in front for a goal. I really don't like how Torts is treating him, it's just getting ridiculous now, why did we even call him up?
Very simple how I respond. The team has a winning record & has gone 7-3-1 in last 11. The only reason they haven't locked up a spot is the Jets, Isles, & caps have been just as hot. To blame a coach who had a week of training Camp for not getting his team prepared is not fair. Not to mention he lost his best 2-way Defensman Staal for 1/2 the season, 2 of his big scorers Richards & Gaborik slumped most of season. Which in a shorten seasoned is really significant. Like all good coaches he diagnosed what was wrong & fixed it. Hence the 7-3-1 surge plus I think 15-6-1 over the 2nd half of the season. If the Rangers make the playoffs it will be because their were 8-teams in front of them who played great. For example we have a 55% winning percentage that is usually good enough to make it.
@ThrSage I like this guy! Actual stats! No sensationalist crap!
@ThrSage I;m not a Torts fan but I have to admit Kreider did not look good after his first 2 goals last playoofs - he may have saved the Ottawa series, maybe but after that his play was not NHL. No knock on the kid, bright future. The reasons I don't like our coach I've made all too clear on other posts but I have not said a peep about his treatment of Keider. Some aspects of coaching he's very good at and has a Cup and a great run last year to prove it. I get it and these numbers really bring it on home.
@gravey94 My thoughts exactly on Kried
Oh so true...Once again you hit it right on the head....my aforementioned best friend texted me about Torts comments after the game ripping him for never saying we don't score enough. I said the same thing to him. He and all the Torts haters hated the Gaborik trade cause they saw it as us trading our only real goal scorer besides Nash. We go 7-2-1 after the trades, average over 4-goals a game and all the critics r silent. Lose 1-game and Torts is holding back the scoring and Torts dd this and blah bllah blah. I get it Torts is unlikable however so was Arbour, Bowman, Lemaire. even Sather/Muckler. All great coaches are demanding & unlikable however the facts r the facts. Torts is a winning coach w-a Cup on his resume'. W-an Organization BTW which was a laughingstock before & after him.
@gravey94 I like this perspective.
Its working out fine Del-Z has played well this year. How did Lecavlier do b4 Torts got to Tampa? They were ready to give up n him until Torts got him to play to his potential. He went from an underacheiver whohad his Captaincy stripped to one of the best 2-way centers in the game. or how bout St. Louis? How did Richard develop as a young guy under Torts? How has Mcdonough & Stepan done? Or Staal? or Hags?They are all good players who learned to play the right way. torts knows what he iis doing. Torts critics blame him for evvrything but they have no facts to back up their argument. For example how many goals does Gabby have in Columbus? How bout 3-in 10 games. I am sure that Torts fault too!!!!
@rangersfan I can't know the thinking on this but I believe just having Kreid hang with the team, practice and watch the game and get in his 4 minutes is OK, and was probably the reason he was brought back up instead of players who would fit the role of 4th line better. Torts knows he's got jam but doesn't have an NHL game just yet. I have issues with Torts but Kried has never been one of them. He may just be working with him in practice, telling him to watch what his other players are doing during the games, and using this playoff run as an opportunity to help his development. Kreid's playoff hit was short lived IMHO and he did not look like he belonged here after the Ottawa series being largely invisible while making costly errors. .
He didn't throw him under the bus he simply pointed out he took a dumb penalty. Richards is a pro & a leader he can handle it.
Thats ridiculous!!!! Kreider is fine!!! . he ain't leaving 5- years from now over this. Thats a lifetime in sports!!!!He understands this is part of his development. I know one of his College teamates who is in the minors w-another organization & talks w-Kreider often, he said Kreider is fine. He is a very laid back kid who doesn't let things like this bother him. Most of his teamates who got drafted then grauduated are playing in the minors. He knew it was possible he would be up and down or benched by Torts. he was told to expect it. Plus he has seen his friends & former teamates go thru it. He is fine
@StephenFotiu Yeah what's up with that beef? Pretty juvenile.
I really don't buy that. Every coach had the same short training camp and he had a veteran core returning. The biggest change was Nash who is the best player on the team. Yes, he lost Stahl but what team doesn't have a key injury? This team finished first last year and is struggling to make the playoffs. I guess you don't think the coach has any culpability for a team's success or failures.
I would like to hear why you don't like him. Though I like the results he has gotten, I have some doubts about him myself. Sometimes a team plays well in spite of the coach. I would lve to hear what you have to say cause maybe I got it wrong.
Of course I think a coach has culpability. Torts like all coaches has his good & bad points. The fact remains his good outweighs his bad & his record on both this year & in years past shows that. As for "other teams" having a shortened camp & injuries, no doubt that is true. However, any expert, statistician, scout, analyst or anybody who analyzes these things will tell you to be careful in making evaluations in a shortened season. its just not enough of a sample size. Small factors have to big of an impact. For example Brodeur being hurt for 10-games in a full season is only 10% of the season. In this year its 20% & has had an outsized impact on the Devs missing the playoffs. One slump can kill a teams season. I think Torts has done some good & some bad. For example his erratic changing of line & not giving guys time to build chemistry. His absolute refusal to take Richards off the point & off the 1st unit of the PP despite truly horriific results. Its obvious Richy should not be on the point on the PP, he does not have a big shot so he is useless there. Again though all the evidence points to Torts being a good coach. He had winning record w-Prospal as his #1 center. He had another w-Dubinsky as his leading scorer w-54 points. He has this team within 2-games of the Finals last year. he took a team that was a joke for years molded it into a Cup winner in tampa. And has been a joke since BTW. That is just some of his resume', there is alot more. Now the flip side of your argument for me is this. Whenever I ask a Torts critic to tell me why he is not a good coach or why he is responsible for this team supposedly underacheiving I ask them to give me evidence as to why he is at fault. No one ever does. For example I often hear, he is terrible at developing young players. When i respond w-how bout Lecavlier, Richards, St. Louis, & Boyle in Tampa. Or Stepan, staal, Hags, & Mcdonough in NY his critics can't respond. Or if I ask give me the players that Torts ran out of here who are now thriving elsewhere? No one can.. Even in your analysis all u said was a non-specific "he wasn't prepared for a shortened season'. I am open to the anti-Torts argumment cause I think the guy is a little tightly wound & he worries me in a big spot like over the next 2-games. So if you can give me some good reasons why he is not a good coach & why the Rangers will be better w-out him, I am open minded.
Agreed that my be true but 11-goals out of 36 tells a pretty obvious story. He has to be to blame for alot of it. He is a young guy. Its very rare for a rookie to learn the D part of hockey w-out struggling. Especially a scorer. I also have to believe Torts saw it on tape or he would play him. He knows he needs goalls.
@ThrSage Funny you should mention Keenan as an example - the one guy who makes Torts seem like a poster boy for a cool head lol - amongst his other flashes of brilliance he told Tony Amante that he could never make it in the NHL and tried to change his game. WTF? He lost the locker room well before that game and thank god Mess took over "coaching" that team otherwise we'd be talking about 70 years without a cup now. These other coaches are all passionate. I like passion and that is one of Torts assets as long as he does not step over the line and become over-reactionary and short sighted. It took him like how many games, over half the season to change the power play after they were dead last in the league. Other teams knew exactly what we were going to do with the man advantage and defended it easily as every time we tried the exact same things and we only scored on the rush or on a broken play. When he finally did change it we started netting a few, and then it got even better after the trade. So these are some of the things - but lets hope you're right my friend - that his positives will outweigh the negatives. Nobody's perfect and if he could just show some flexibility, consistency and imagination I will shut up. A lot of what I've posted this season on him has just been venting frustration anyway. In the end he'll prove me wrong I hope.
I think you are right & I agree on all those points. I also don't believe that waht u wrote was opinion. There are many examples to back up what ur saying. Like him going after a fan in DC a few years ago & getting suspended. A coach should never ever do that. Or the way he snaps at reporters in games after tough losses. its a lack of professionalism. Its sends the wrong example to ur players about losing ur hea & letting fans get to U. Torts definetly worries me in a big spot. I could see him doing something stupid in a big game ala Keenan in Game 5 of the ECF in 94. Its a well established fact he lost it & demoralized the team so much they were going to lose that series until Messier saved the room by telling Keenan he was wrong & then the season by his called shot in Game-6. This team doesn't have a Messier to save him, cause Mess was a once in a generation player/leader. However, I think his positives outweigh those negatives. Remember most all top coaches in the NHl are like that. Bowman, Lemaire, Keenan. Eve Sutter who won a Cup last year. All reactionary stubborn & have lost their hads in big spots. Even Al Arbour. As for playing faves that part drives me nuts. I have often joked when Richy was bad this year that Torts was so mad he would bench Kreider even further...lol. Got a laugh out of Kevin Delury on some of those. So I think your right. However, like I said most coaches do that. For example I could never figure out why Greg Gilbert got a regular shift in 94 over Amonte or Olcyzk other than he was Kennan's guy. So I agree w-you. Lets hope he can learn from his mistakes & we can win a Cup w-him. I will tell u & as you can see from what I just wrote I am concerned.
@ThrSage I find our coach to be reactionary, egotistical and short sighted IMHO. I always have, even before he came here. This is not a statement on his knowledge of the game, his youth development, and even his knowledge of his players skills (with things like keeping Pyatt on the 3rd line for example - no comment came from me about that when most other fans were bitching). When things are going well he's great. No problems. He's got a cup and had our boys overachieving all the way to the conference finals so no problems there, but when they are not going well he seems to short circuit, and then keeps trying the same things over and over again that aren't working. His style reminds me of an "abusive boss" in a way. How he treats you depends largely on his mood for the day. If you cross check someone in the crease for examples and get called you might get praised from your coach for toughness, or you might get benched the whole game. You torts defenders have seen this just as I have - much of what I say here is based upon opinion but this is real fact. These players don't know what to expect from him because there is no consistency on how he'll react. (this is how it appears to me as a fan), and he seems to play favorites, which is one of the worse things a coach can do for the moral of his club. The results of this coaching style is that these players tighten up and start thinking in a lightning fast sport where you do not have time to think if you want to be effective. It is a sport of reaction and intuition, a tapestry of artistic flow and sheer brutality and the results under Torts speak for themselves (this year). Our team over achieved last year but is underachieving this year. If anyone disagrees they do not know what we have here. I've described coach torts in the past of being a "2 dimensional thinker" - the 3rd dimension of depth being the "human dimension" A good coach is a great psychologist first and foremost. doesn't matter how well you know the game. Hockey players are human beings first and human beings have fragile psyches. It's the nature of the beast. It appears to me he does not get that. I could be wrong becuase I am not in that locker room but that is what I see as a fan. I read an article for example on the Ottawa team and how there coach sat down with his players after all the injuries and said to them to "forget about who is injured, I like what I see in front of me right now" - and these minor leaguers with the help of Alfy and Neal tore up the league. I think my biggest beef with Torts this year is that during the off season we lost all of our blue collar grinders except Cally and maybe one or 2 more. Dubi, Prust, Feds to name a few, but we got more skill instead. I knew that this would have an impact on the team but around mid-season Torts says "We underestimated the impact of losing these guys" WTF??? I'm just a fan. You're suppose to be smarter than me. Torts plays a very sound system in today's game. No problem there but he doesn't allow for much modification and creativity in my view. He continued to play the same way as last year - the exact same style, the same system with no modification for his improved skill and reduced grit, which worked wonders last year with an undertalented hard working blue collar team but this is a different team with more skill and less grind but he failed to adapt - then new players come in, do great the 1st couple days then seem stifled by "the system" and have been so-so ever since, save a few moments of brilliance from the Brass-man. . Then after a while when you have an "abusive boss" and feel under appreciated, mistreated etc. and resentment in the locker room sets in. You stop giving up your body for your coach and your team and you stop playing at 101% every night. It's basic human nature, "the 3rd dimension" which this coach seems to not get. These of course are just my humble assessments based upon my observations. His line changes are another thing that gets my goat, and his utter refusal to reunite Step-Hags-Nashty when they tore it up, then he promptly broke them up when Richey returned from injury - finally after like 12 games he re-united them and they tore it up again. In the end that was not the answer but why do you not try something that worked in the past, that got you goals when your team is not scoring. Stubborness and ego are the only answers I can come up with. Anyway to be balanced yes he has a great track record with the young players suggesting my statements on not getting psychology are over stated but it does not seem to translate into the games. I know he knows things I do not and there is so much more going on in this game then I am aware of but from what I see this is the impression I am getting.
I don't love Torts I have my issues w-him. However, I cannot argue w-the results he has gotten both here & in tampa. As for not making the Playoffs here is what i have to say. The team has a winning record & has gone 7-3-1 in last 11. The only reason they haven't locked up a spot is the Jets, Isles, & caps have been just as hot. To blame a coach who had a week of training Camp for not getting his team prepared is not fair. Not to mention he lost his best 2-way Defensman Staal for 1/2 the season, 2 of his big scorers Richards & Gaborik slumped most of season. Which in a shorten seasoned is really significant. Like all good coaches he diagnosed what was wrong & fixed it. Hence the 7-3-1 surge plus I think 15-6-1 over the 2nd half of the season. If the Rangers make the playoffs it will be because their were 8-teams in front of them who played great. For example we have a 55% winning percentage that is usually good enough to make it. U said he did not have his team ready show me how? Thats just a vague opinion on ur part. any expert, statistician, scout, analyst or anybody who analyzes these things will tell you to be careful in making evaluations in a shortened season. its just not enough of a sample size. Small factors have to big of an impact. For example Brodeur being hurt for 10-games in a full season is only 10% of the season. In this year its 20% & has had an outsized impact on the Devs missing the playoffs. One slump can kill a teams season. I think Torts has done some good & some bad. For example his erratic changing of line & not giving guys time to build chemistry. His absolute refusal to take Richards off the point & off the 1st unit of the PP despite truly horriific results. Its obvious Richy should not be on the point on the PP, he does not have a big shot so he is useless there. Again though all the evidence points to Torts being a good coach. He had winning record w-Prospal as his #1 center. He had another w-Dubinsky as his leading scorer w-54 points. He has this team within 2-games of the Finals last year. he took a team that was a joke for years molded it into a Cup winner in tampa. And has been a joke since BTW. That is just some of his resume', there is alot more. Now the flip side of your argument for me is this. Whenever I ask a Torts critic to tell me why he is not a good coach or why he is responsible for this team supposedly underacheiving I ask them to give me evidence as to why he is at fault. No one ever does. For example I often hear, he is terrible at developing young players. When i respond w-how bout Lecavlier, Richards, St. Louis, & Boyle in Tampa. Or Stepan, staal, Hags, & Mcdonough in NY his critics can't respond. Or if I ask give me the players that Torts ran out of here who are now thriving elsewhere? No one can.. Even in your analysis all u said was a non-specific "he wasn't prepared for a shortened season'. I am open to the anti-Torts argumment cause I think the guy is a little tightly wound & he worries me in a big spot like over the next 2-games. So if you can give me some good reasons why he is not a good coach & why the Rangers will be better w-out him, I am open minded. r why he is responsible for them missing the playoffs I am open minded.