This is an article that would seem like a knee-jerk reaction to last night's loss. But it's not. I actually started putting it together prior to the game. As nice as this little surge from the Rangers has been, reality is that every team goes through good and bad spurts over an 82-game season. The Bruins are 2-4-1 in their last seven. The Islanders are 7-2-0 in their last nine. The Kings are 3-6-1 in their last 10. I don't think any of those streaks truly embody what each of those teams is about. As great as the Rangers have been in the last handful of games, it does not undermine multiple months of mediocrity. We're not quite at Judgement Day yet, so there is time for the Rangers to go on a run and change their outlook. As of now, though, the Rangers have 11 games left to play before the week leading up to the trading deadline. Glen Sather and management have a decision to make; stick with the current group, hope to claw its way into a playoff spot and happen to catch lightning in a bottle during the playoffs, or concede defeat this season and look towards next year (and beyond). Now, how likely Sather is to swallow his pride and give up on the season is questionable. As I see it, though, the benefits of putting the team in a better position for the future far outweighs the likelihood of any tangible success from this current group. I don't view yet another low playoff seed and first or second round exit as success.
Perhaps my sentiment will change 10 games from now. And, again, I'm skeptical of Sather buying in to the idea of trading off assets and regrouping. But let's flirt with the idea now, if only for academic purposes. What kind of haul could the Rangers bring in as sellers at the trading deadline and how would that play into the following offseason?
Let's compare the Rangers' impending Unrestricted Free Agents to similar players of years' past who were traded at the deadline so we can get an idea of what Glen Sather is working with.
High-End Comparables: Jarome Iginla to Pittsburgh for 1st, Ken Agostino, Ben Hanowski (2013) ; Ilya Kovalchuk, Anssi Salmela, and 2nd to New Jersey for Johnny Oduya, Nicklas Bergfors, Patrice Cormier, 1st, and 2nd (2010)
Low-End Comparables: Vaclav Prospal to Philadelphia for Alex Picard, 2nd (2008) ; Ryane Clowe to Rangers for 2nd, 3rd, Conditional 2nd (2013)
Context: It wasn't easy finding great comparables for Callahan, but I think that speaks largely to how rare it is for a player of his caliber to hit the market as a rental. I think the two best to look at here are Clowe and Iginla. Clowe was in the middle of the worst season of his career, with no goals through 28 games and some signs of slowing down. On the flip side, Iginla also was not having his greatest season statistically, though that could largely be excused due to the pathetic nature of the Flames. Nonetheless, Iginla was the top rental on the market. Supreme veteran and leader. Highly talented offensive forward also capable of a physical game. Iginla's offensive ability was a class above Callahan's, but Iginla's value was dramatically hindered by a No-Movement Clause; there are no roadblocks to trading Callahan. Whereas Iginla seemed helbent on picking the team he was going to (as was his right) the Rangers could theoretically move Callahan to any of the 29 other teams. Even still, Iginla brought in a 1st and two solid prospects. Though he's a lesser asset than Iginla, Callahan gives Sather market leverage that the Flames did not own. Realistically, I think we could expect a 1st round pick at a bare minimum, and likely either another 2nd or equivalent prospect along with a roster filler.
High-End Comparables: Jay Bouwmeester to St. Louis for Reto Berra, Marc Cundari, 1st, Conditional 4th (2013) ; Tomas Kaberle to Boston for Joe Colborne, 1st, Conditional 2nd (2011)
Low-End Comparables: Nicklas Grossmann to Philadelphia for 2nd, 3rd (2012) ; Jordan Leopold to St. Louis for 2nd, 5th (2013)
Context: Dan Girardi had a rough start to the season defensively but has since picked up his game. Girardi is not ideal for Vigneault's system, which relies heavily on skating, as opposed to Tortorella's, which matches Girardi's grinding, shot-blocking nature perfectly. In any case, even Doug Murray, clearly on the decline, earned the Sharks two 2nd round picks last year. Bouwmeester and Kaberle were in a class above Girardi for sure, so I don't think he would bring in a haul quite like that, but with how the projected trading market is looking Girardi would almost definitely be the top defensemen available. Supply and demand is everything, and so I don't think it's unreasonable to believe Girardi could haul in a 1st round pick, a B+ prospect, and maybe another prospect/pick. And that might be underselling it a bit. In a total doomsday scenario, I think the Murray deal or Robyn Regehr's deal last season, also netting two 2nd round picks, are the absolute bottom. He's certainly a more valuable asset than either Grossmann or Leopold.
High-End Comparables: Paul Gaustad and 4th to Nashville for 1st (2012) ; Jeff Halpern to Los Angeles for Teddy Purcell, 3rd (2010)
Low-End Comparables: Sam Pahlsson to Vancouver for two 4th's (2012) ; Michal Handzus to Chicago for 4th
Context: Brian Boyle has his share of faults and frustrating traits. There is no doubt about it. His hands of stone and hesitance to get optimal use out of his large frame can be headache-inducing. Nonetheless, he's exactly the kind of bottom-six center that contending teams look to acquire. He's very good on faceoffs. He's a great penalty killer. He can chip in the occasional goal and he's a great team guy. You can disagree all you want, but at the end of the day Glen Sather admitted in the summer that he received a number of calls on Brian Boyle. And Mike Babcock, arguably the most successful and respected head coach in the NHL today, admires him. He's doing something right to earn that kind of respect within the league. The Guastad trade was bizarre from the beginning and I don't think San Jose got the best value out of Handzus. Perhaps the Halpern trade is the best comparable here. Though he's developed into a very solid player, Purcell was a struggling project in Los Angeles prior to being moved to Tampa Bay, so the trade was much more understandable then as opposed to how it looks four years after the fact. Sather could conceivably milk a 2nd out of a team if the market is being cooperative, but at least a 3rd is definitely a reasonable expectation.
High-End Comparables: Johnny Oduya to Chicago for 2nd, 3rd (2012) ; Marek Zidlicky to New Jersey for Nick Palmieri, Stephane Veilleux, Kurtis Foster, 2nd, 3rd (2012)
Low-End Comparables: Bryan McCabe to New York for Tim Kennedy, 3rd (2011) ; Andrew Alberts to Vancouver for 3rd (2010)
Context: Stralman's value seems pretty straight forward. He's far from an All-Star defenseman but he's reliable in both ends of the ice and has consistently been a 16-19 minute defenseman for the Rangers over the last few seasons. Though there's room for variance, defensemen of his caliber seem to garner 2nd round picks. Leopold got the 2nd and 5th. Chris Campoli got a 2nd and filler. Derek Seidenberg got a 2nd in 2010 (with filler on both sides as well) as did Denis Grebeshkov. I think a 2nd for Stralman is perfectly fair value, though I could see Sather squeezing another pick or prospect out of another team as well given the poor market for defensemen.
High-End Comparables: Andrei Kostitsyn to Nashville for 2nd, Conditional 5th (2012) ; Wojtek Wolski to Florida for Mike Vernace, 3rd (2012)
Low-End Comparables: Matt D'Agostini, Conditional 7th to St. Louis for Conditional 4th/5th (2013) ; Erik Christensen, 7th to Minnesota for Casey Wellman (2012)
Context: Pouliot, AKA Captain Taco, is the opposite of Stralman. He's enigmatic and volatile and his value surely is reflected in that. When he's at his best, he's an incredibly talented winger capable of a number of things in the offensive zone. At that peak production I could think of more absurd scenarios than Sather wrestling a 2nd away from some desperate GM. At his worst, he's a totally irrelevant commodity who is insivisible on the ice and would be lucky to get picked up via waivers. We've seen both sides of him this season. His value is dependent on how he's played in the couple weeks prior to the deadline, the market, the desperation levels of certain teams, and probably a measure of timing and good/bad luck. My most balanced look at Pouliot makes me believe that a non-contending team looking to add offensive depth while not being in a position to break the bank on any of the top rentals might toss a 4th Sather's way.
High-End Comparables: Sam Pahlsson to Vancouver for two 4th's (2012) ; Mike Brown to Edmonton for 4th (2013)
Low-End Comparables: Jerred Smithson to Nashville for 6th (2012) ; Petteri Nokelainen to Anaheim for 6th (2010)
Context: Dominic Moore has been moved at the deadline a number of his times in his career, and his value has consistently been a 2nd, though sometimes a 3rd. Unfortunately for the Rangers Moore has aged and his play has declined. He's still a nice, well-rounded depth player with a lot of experience that any playoff team would love to add. He has a bit more offensive upside than a guy like Smithson, though I don't think he's at Pahlsson's value, either. A 4th or 5th seems reasonable.
High-End Comparables: John Scott to New York for 5th (2012) ; Brad Winchester to Anaheim for 3rd (2011)
Low-End Comparables: Brandon Segal to Tampa Bay for Future Considerations (2012) ; Voros to Anaheim for Future Considerations (2011)
Context: Trading Carcillo so soon after acquiring him? It could happen. Just ask Pascal Dupuis, who was moved close to the deadline six games after the Rangers acquired him. I'm not even going to waste my time analyzing this. John Scott got a 5th. JOHN SCOTT. I'm far from a big Dan Carcillo fan, but Dan Carcillo might as well be Pavel Datsyuk compared to John Scott. Jody Shelley got a 6th. JODY SHELLEY. Carcillo at least can skate five strides without falling over and he can chip in a couple goals. Surely some team would give up a 5th or 6th for Carcillo, no? If not, then Sather might as well just keep him as a warm body for the rest of the season. We would still have to put players on the ice for the remainder of the season.
I understand that throwing in the towel is not a fun idea; especially after coming so close to winning it all two seasons ago. I'm looking at this with all emotion removed. Despite the recent success, the Rangers are currently closer to a top-10 draft pick than they are to top-10 in the NHL. We can play the what-if game where everything clicks for the Rangers at the right time and they go on a Cinderella run in the playoffs, but that's largely wishful thinking. In the last 19 seasons only two teams below 4th in the Conference have won the Stanley Cup; one of which was the Devils in a lockout-shortened year. In all likelihood, we're looking at this team peaking out as a 1st or 2nd round playoff exit team, and that does absolutely nothing to help the cause.
I see moving most or all of these guys as a temporary step back for the sake of the greater good. Adding a whole slew of picks and prospects would give management a lot to work with in the summer. Based on reasonable valuations, the Rangers could end up with one or two first round picks on top of their natural first rounder, which would likely be somewhere between 7th and 12th. And they'd have a whole slew of 2nd and/or 3rd rounders as well. That would really re-stock the farm system, and with all those picks they could package some picks to move up in the draft or make a trade for some NHL talent. And letting some of these guys walk, combined with a Brad Richards amnesty buyout, would give management a hell of a lot of cap space to utilize. Guys like Girardi and Callahan are very good players and have been great servants to the team, but we've seen the likes of Brian Leetch and Adam Graves leave before; life goes on. It's 2014, and the likes of Stepan, Kreider, and McDonagh are moving up the ladder. Those guys combined with an established core of Lundqvist, Nash, Staal, Zuccarello, Hagelin... it's possible the Rangers could not skip a beat and go right back to competitive hockey for next season while being in a much better position long-term.
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What would Staal be worth in a trade or does his injury history make him nearly "untradeable". I think a guy like Callahan needs to stay though. He makes a difference on the ice, is versatile and plays a full game, end to end.
Nice piece Adam. Good breakdown of the players worth as is compared to what we have seen in the past. Puts a lot in perspective..
Adam....great piece here. It definitely gives us "a big picture way" of assessing some of our talent. I like how you compared our talent to others from a GM perspective. Your presentation is thought provoking.....thank you!
I would ask you or anyone else if there is any solid evidence out there that indicates if Sather is thinking about making any of these changes and what kind of strategy he might employ going forward. I realize what I am asking is hard to come by. Most of NY media doesn't think in strategic terms so they don't think to ask those strategic type questions......Wouldn't it be great if Sather granted you guys an interview and we had a chance to submit our questions to you guys before hand......of course we would have to eliminate all references to A-holes and F___'in this and F______'n that??
Bottom line if you sign these 2 to LONG TERM expensive contracts and they are not as good now as 2 years ago how about in 2-3 years when they are worse then now. Unload, Chicago did and they managed to draft well and pick and choose the right FA's to fit their team. Sather should follow suit
I don't consider Cally and Girardi selling if you can not sign them for the appropriate amount that helps the team. They are great chips to buy either someone now or for the future. Lets face it either one is not at the top of their games anymore and Girardi is not getting any younger and Cally is not getting any healthier if he plays the game the way he does.(if he doesn't then he is not worth a 4th rounder) So selling either or both imo is the thing to do, now that they are still worth a lot in other GM's eyes. At least Cally can bring leadership to a young team all Girardi brings is shot blocking imo he is most over rated ranger of all time
People are failing to consider that even if your return for some of these players are simply prospects and picks that THOSE prospects are not the replacements of the lost players. The Rangers will be gaining a ton of financial room that would have otherwise gone to keeping their FA, who have never brought a cup and who will likely be on the decline and therefore never bring a cup, which is why you trade them to begin with. WITH that extra money you can sign other perhaps more cap friendly FA, who may not be Carl Crawford, or Adrian Gonzalez, but who might be BETTER players for winning..i.e. Jonny Gomes, Victorino, Mike Carp, Napoli, etc... PLUS you also now have the picks and prospects as well. That is a HUGE oversight that most posters are ignoring. To me this is a no brainer. Why in the world are people defending keeping this .500 and middling team together? Jesus christ..Sather could shit the bed on every potential play and it would be a lateral move at worst. This team (and it's constituent parts) are NOT worth defending. "Oh no...we can't break THESE guys up..noo." Sheeeesh.
Very good article and analysis. My take as a fan. Unless the Rangers are close to signing Callahan, Girardi, etc., for reasonable contracts, you likely have to move them or risk losing them outright. We've all discussed injuries, playing styles, etc., so no sense reviewing again. Like it or not, we need guys like Boyle, Carcillo, etc., because they don't cost much and they offset the Rangers bloated roster. Many like to point to the cost of Richards and Nash. As some know, my poster child for overpaid players is Hank, who is a wonderful goalie. He also costs on average about $4.5 million more than each goalie who has beaten us in recent weeks and that spread will increase next year. Bishop looked damned good for a $2.3 million goalie last night, didn't he? How are we going to build a successful team when so much money goes out to but a few players? Bottom line: sign what we can now and what we can't gets moved at the deadline. Realistically, this team has been fun to watch and I like the work ethic, but it will barely make the playoffs if at all. JMHO.
Good to see I am far from the only one defending Cally here. Props to all of you!!! You look at the pros and cons, and there are more pros in re-signing him than cons. He returned from his last injury and he has been one of our best forwards as of late posting 5 points in his last 6 games including a clutch goal.
Dominic Moore for Jonathan Toews.....straight up. Take it or leave it Chicago! Ok ok..If I have to I will throw in a 7th round draftpick.
Another thing Adam is the notion that additional cap space is going to do you any good in FA. The recent trend is to sign your best players before they reach free agency and so the annual crop gets worse and worse. OMG, look at all the horrific huge money signings the past few years: Leino, Erhoff, Weiss, Clarkson, Clowe, Wisniewski, Richards and so many more. The busts far and away outweigh guys like Carle and Filpulla who pan out. This year's FA crop is already weak and the best of them may not ever go on the market. Add that to the fact that the Panthers now have a blank check to spend up to $40M to build the team and other teams have significant cap room what chance do the Rangers have to get a good player without making a Richards type deal. The successful teams have known for a while that the draft is the only way to build a team that will last at a high level. Unload and rebuild is my vote.
Nice article. Really helpful to put the value of some of our "sellables" in perspective. Thanks.
It makes me sad to think, but I don't believe there's any chance Sather goes the selling route. I mean, how much longer can he possibly continue to do this work? He's going to take his shots at the cup now, I think...to our detriment.
Great job as usual. There is no chance whatsoever of Slats giving up on the season. not when u look at that absurd trade for Clowe which cost them two high draft choices and would have been a been a third he if had resigned him. No wonder the Rangers have the worst farm system in all of hockey with not a single top four Dman prospect in the pipeline with the possible exception of Brady S. who looked none to promising in the Junior tourney. Other than Miller, Boo,The Duke and Butch are the only viable forwards, but the last three are years away if ever. The Sharks had a far better chance to go deep in the playoffs last year but they understand how build a team so they unloaded Clowe and Murray an the deadline.
The Kings barely made the playoffs in 2012 and then gave one of the most dominant runs since I can remember. Not that the Rangers are the same, but sometimes you have to take a risk on the team you have instead of overhaul. This year has the weakest Eastern Conference in memory. It's up for grabs. I say go for it. Although, beating the team that comes out of the West is a different story.
i don't think we need an overhaul. if for no other reason than shuffling the deck completely does not guarantee anything. could be a lateral move or worse.team is looking good now, finally. we haven't had a power play like this since gretzky, and we are finding our brand. Make a good sensible trade if we can improve responsibly and see where we're at.
I'm sorry, the more I think about this, the more insane the idea. We're in 4th place in our division right now. And only the Flyers (who absolutely suck) and the Capitals (who'd be down with the Sabres and Islanders if it weren't for their 8-6 record in the 14 games they've played into a shootout) stand between us and the Penguins. Did we suck for on our opening road trip? Yes. Did we suck in our 9 game homestand? Yes. But if we had played half of our first 30 games with the determination and skill that we've played the last 10, would be be in a better spot in the standings? Absolutely. Some guys had some bad starts, coupled with a new coach who made a terrible decision on how to manage his training camp. But here we are, and its really not THAT bad.
And then we get to these proposed trades. We're discussing the unloading of 7 players, with the intention to get back 2-3 NHL journeyman, 1 or 2 prospects, and a bunch of 2nd-7th round draft picks? Here's a link to a list of NYR Draft picks over the years:
Going back to 2005 (that's 8 drafts!) I count Sauer, Tom Pyatt, Anisimov, Hagelin, Stepan, Dale Weise and Fasth as guys who weren't drafted in the 1st round and have pulled on an NHL sweater. So that's your rebuild? That by 2021 when Hank's contract is up, THAT is the kind of home-grown prospects we'll be working with?
I'll give you the fact that guys like Grachev, Borque, St Croix, Nieves, Tambellini, Buchnevich and Duclair also would go on a list of guys who weren't 1st rounders and could still potentially pan out. But I'm sorry thats not the direction this team is going to go. I know Adam would love for the Wolfpack to get better (and maybe thats his underlying motivation for this), but this isn't the recipe for building an NHL Stanley Cup Contender.
I wouldn't mind them making a run for Connor McDavid. They'd have to look for 2015 pics. But, it would be amazing to have a true super star in New York.
As an aside, has anyone else noticed the proper ASS RAPING the refs have been giving the Rangers at home this year...
It's always nice to play "what if... " trouble is we probably don't have anyone that will really get much in return. I think we're looking at the low end predictions for most of these guys. 2nd/3rd/4th/5th round picks are all nice on paper but in reality they're mostly likely not game changers and many end up career AHLers. It's real chancy. Look how well Sather's disgraceful discarding of Brian Leetch worked out....That was the pessimistic part - the optimistic part of me would like to think that this team is a few pieces away from being a good team rather than in need of a big rebuild.
On a side note - it's amazing to see how many doctors post on this site. All of them able to diagnose Callahan's assured physical decline through their TV sets or from the expensive seats in the garden. I'm pretty sure he's not a cripple yet. He might just be a young guy (28!) whose having a rough time from an injury plagued year and can come back strong next year. He might even be getting back to 100% this season - it's just silly to talk about him like he's done and he should be discarded. He's the damn Captain! He definitely motivates this team through his play and determination. He is still a strong 2-way player capable of scoring but he doesn't need to score 35 goals to be considered a success. He's not an overpaid underachiever like half the roster (and the GM for that matter). Give the guy some frickin' slack!
And as always - let me just say "trade Del Zotto"! (or just ditch him somewhere...)
A more realistic scenario is for the Rangers to try and improve the team for now and for the future. For example - I could see them moving Del Zotto and Brassard for an Evander Kane...or in a really silly world, I could see them moving both of those players for the Schenn brothers (add size for speed - except they ain't doin a deal with Philly). I gave both those examples to demonstrate moving current NHLers for other current NHLers that in theory could fit the makeup of this roster better. In both cases they stay young and energetic. But ain't no way a New York City team playing in Madison Square Garden gonna have a full sell off and go into reboot mode. More realistic is that deals get done with most of those guys and any moves would be "smart" and for the present
It's a nice dream, but we're not the Blackhawks. They unloaded after winning a cup, which gave them leverage to attract free agents to acceptable contract terms in order to play with the likes of Kane, Toews, Sharp, Hossa and Keith in hopes of doing it again.
They traded or walked away from guys like Versteeg Campbell and Byufglen, but they kept a core together that attracted new talent to come to play at reasonable rates. Like it or not, Cally, Girardi, even Brian Boyle, along with Staal, Hank, Nash, and McD are our core. That needs to stay to attract secondary talent. The Blackhawks wouldn't have won in 2013 if they had also let Kane, Toews, Keith and/or Hossa go.
Agreed. Look what happened to the team after losing Dubi and Prust. Getting rid of Cally would get rid of what heart they have left.
@Wallace1 The Kings always had the potential to be a dominant team in 2012...sorry, there is no Browny on the Rangers and the Kings were a team made up of men...can you say the same about the 2014 Rangers?
this team is ok at best when stacked up against the easteen teams but against the westthey do not have a chance. they would not be in top 10
Totally see your points and agree, but the reason I think this is getting discussed is that this is an unprecedented amount of players on the NYR that are UFAs and RFAs. Can't sign them all, so anyway you slice it, this team is going to look different come next season.
its justified because in prison this Ranger team would be a bitch bending over and over for the soap
Cally is a great player (yes hampered by injuries) and he's worth re-signing. However, he's probably the only UFA we have that could bring back a high 1st rounder in return, so if you want a great pick in the draft, he's the one that's gonna be on the block most likely. Dan G. I think at best could bring back a late 1st rounder. Anyway, I want Cally to stay. Leetch was unceremoniously dumped, and it could have been handled better, but it was the right move to get picks and prospects for him cause even with Leetch the NYR were going nowhere fast and facts are facts, Leetch was in decline. (and Leetch was my fav player and I think he earned the right to retire as a NYR) And the Leetch trade may have been well worth it if not for Michael Sauer's concussions causing the end to his career.
@jasonshyerwhich part of that post was the realistic part :)
@jasonshyer Even more realistic is that we trade a lot of our UFA's for former 1st round draft picks who aren't panning out with their current teams and take them on as "reclamation" projects, Then the NYR go out and sign the splashiest, highest profile free agent on the market, regardless of how he fits into the makeup of the team. Then finally, we give a 2nd go around to guys like Nik Zherdev, Oli Jokinen, and Nik Antropov, just because they're more mature now. This is the realism of having Sather/Dolan at the helm unfortunately.
I think you are overestimating both the value of our core (as perceived by potential FA's) and more important the value that it has in the equation of determining the landing spot of any potential FA's. Hockey may be less so than other sports, but I still think the number of players who put ANYTHING over money can be counted in the low single digits percentage wise.
@Wallace1@mmars79Dubi was called a Cancer so stop already with the Dubi love. he is mediocre at best good pk got his ass kicked 75% of all his fights. Prust on the other hand brought more to the table but at the time his value was too expensive in order to sign other needed assets. (we all know how that turned out) but at the time we all loved it. With cap moving up he is a bargain, just like colton orr.
I do actually think the Rangers have the potential to be a dominant team. And Callahan is pretty similar to Brown. If everybody plays well on the Rangers at the same time, then they are a dominant team. If the players alternate when they are going to put in an effort, then they are a mediocre team, as they've been all year.
As an overall assesment, I agree, we'd be in the running for a top pick if we moved into the West, facing those caliber teams on a regular basis. But so far this year, head-to-head, we have wins against the Canucks, Blackhawks, Wild, and Kings, 4 of the 8 teams that would make the playoffs if they started today.
In reality, to win the up, goal #1 is to make it out of your conference, and then goal #2 is to beat ONE of the teams in the west 4 out of 7 games. Not ALL the teams in the west, and not 40-50 times out of 82. The beauty that is the NHL Playoffs is that its an entirely new season, Yes, the odds can be stacked against you, but the first 82 games just gets you in, and from there, you start from scratch.
I agree this team will look different next season, as it probably needs to. But people on here are make a "1 Step Back for 2 Steps Forward" argument, which I don't think holds water. I think losing our captain, and some big chunks of the core that have gotten us this far since the lockout is more steps back than we'd ever make up with a bunch of middle of the road draft picks. The truth is that as a rental, while they hold more return value than if they walk for nothing, youre assuming theyre going to walk, or that we're going to choose to not resign them, which I think would be a mistake.
How is Calgary doing since they traded Iginla away? Are they measurably better than if they had just played out the season and let him walk? That draft pick they got from Pitt turned out to be the 28th overall pick, where they selected Morgam Klimchuk, an 18 year old in the Left Winger with a C rating on HokceyFutures.com for ever going Pro.
You're right, this team is going to be different, but if were going to get middle round draft picks in return with low possibilty of ever going pro, then you trade away the players who can be replaced by guys we already have in Hartford. You trade Del Zotto for anything and bring up Allen, you trade Brassard and make JT Miller our 3rd line center, maybe you trade Boyle or Carcillo and bring in Haley. But you DON'T trade the captain and a 1st pair defensemen. We're not the Flames, we're not the Oilers, we're not the Islanders or the Sabres, playing season after season of AHL caliber Hockey. We're not on the verge on imploding. We're on the verge of making the playoffs for the 8th time in 9 years since the lockout, which I think us and the Penguins are the only teams to do.
And by a "high 1st rounder" for Cally I assume you're sending him to Buffalo?
I agree, unless his contract demands are completely ludicrous, he needs to stay, he's the captain.
I think we're making the same point from different directions. It's very easy for the "wrong" type of player to end up here, like you said, reps for good players convincing them this isn't the place to go to win. And if the revolving door of big names and small names continues, that will be an easy argument to make.
The Rangers need to be able to counter argue by pointing out that their best talent is home grown. That despite the glitz and glamour, they are invested in their core, that the right guys are here and just need the last few pieces. That this organization is not going to panic and blow thing up at every sign of adversity. That going from the ECF to the semi finals is not a sign to start over, it's a speed bump and a challenge to get better. Trading away your captain for draft picks is not sending that message.
@johnnyb3910@Say my Name@Bring back LangdonPersonally, I thank you for your long responses because they are well thought out and they are filled with sound hockey sense and are devoid of name calling, bad mouthing etc. The value for me in participating on this blog is to learn more about the NYR and the great game of Hockey. You and many others add to that.
If you look at the situation from the perspective of a player's representative it would be very easy to take the same facts that you present here......massage them with NYR's senior mgmt's hockey decisions of the last 10 years............ and mix them with with the super successful financial picture of MSG....... and then build a business/hockey case that says NYR's senior mgmt is not focused on winning the cup at all.
I like your thinking but from the perspective of a player's rep NY can easily be positioned as a bigger risk for a player looking to win a cup then a significant number of other NHL franchises.around.
@Say my Name@johnnyb3910@Bring back Langdon Another long response by me, but here goes:
I'm not delusional enough to believe that our core is up at the same level as some other teams, although it may have read like that. But it's the closest thing we've got, and its not terribly far off. I'd rather the core "evolve" over the next 3-5 year than be ripped apart and started from scratch. With a number of Olympic players on our roster, I have to imagine there is some draw to join a team with a warrior like Cally as your captain or McDonagh, or a backstop like Lundqvist in your net.
Now you're absolutely right, money trumps all, in all sports, even hockey, although I also agree, probably a little less than other major sports. But any top level free agent is going to get paid no matter where they go, but the good ones want to win. Jarome Iginla is a good example (too good, probably). He's playing for the Bruins for $1.7 mil a year. Thats Brian Boyle money! His previous two contract with Calgary were both for an average of $7/season. Yes, he's older, his stats are declining and he's running out of time. But if Sather had signed him for $3.5 we all would have loved it. So why is he in Boston for $1.7? Because he's generous and likes the Red Sox? No. Because he wants to win a cup, and he was one of 20 Penguins who got steamrolled by the Bruins last season.
Now, every player is not in the same situation as Iginla. Some players are young and think they have dozens of opportunities ahead of them, others are at the twilight of their career and either want one last shot at winning, or want one last shot and banking some money to help their family. For years and years and years the Rangers attracted the old guys who wanted one more contract. NYR has a reputation of treating players better than anyone else. If you were a 35 year old player with a wife and 3 kids, maybe thats what you'd want.
My point is this. As fans, we want the players who want to win. There will always be guys looking to get paid, but how do you find the Iginla's? He went to Boston because they've proved year after year to be a top team, no matter what, the organization puts a good team on the ice. Maybe youre right, maybe its not the core players that attracted Iginla, but it's the core of guys like Chara and Bergeron who have been mainstays on that team. I'd argue that in terms of consistency, we're right there with Boston, we've just consistently been a notch or two below them. I just thing there is value to saying "Here's the team we are, wouldn't you like to join us and help us take that next step?" instead of "Here's my checkbook, how much would you like?"
Totally agree Johnny, and you make some excellent points. As you know, I'm not a trade Cally supporter, but I just presented a scenario for what I think would be the best case scenario if you were/had to trade him. Only point I disagree with you is that IMHO, you should never let a UFA just walk if you are out of the playoff picture. You need to always get some sort of value in return for a UFA (again, if you're not going to the post-season) even if it's a late round draft pick, rather than losing him for nothing. Better a one in a million chance to draft a Lundqvist than no chance at all. Of course the rub on this is that very few teams know that they are out of the playoff picture before the trade deadline so by no means am I saying these are easy scenarios for a GM. Anyway, I don't want to trade Cally, unless 1) he asks for a ridiculous contract or 2) we fleece another team for a great return (any other Sathers out there?) Dan G, I would be more apt to trade if you can get a mid-late 1st rounder, cause I think he's gonna be asking for a 5-6yr contract at 5-5.5m per, and IMHO, he's not worth that. I would rather trade Dan G., get something for him, and then go after Orpik (if he can be had). However, if Orpik re-signs with PITT before the deadline, then sign Dan G.
No. As Adam said earlier, I don't think BUF would bite. They don't need to, as they could go after Cally in the off season and they're a relatively decent hockey market. Plus, the high draft pick is more valuable to them since they're in full rebuild mode. I think the best chance of getting a high pick, if the NYR wanted it, would be to shop Cally to a low, but not totally out of the playoff picture team, in a weak hockey market, like FLA, CAR, or CBJ. These teams are in rebuild mode, but in a much more developed stage than BUF, and they're still pushing for a playoff berth which would be very vital to them in terms of revenue, and Cally would help there. Still most unlikely this happens, but you might be able to get one of these teams to bite, especially if they think they have a good chance at signing Cally to an extension. Regardless, I want Cally to resign. There's a lot of talent available in the NHL, but not a lot of guys who play with his fire.